Deathmatch 2025 - Sideswipes

M’s is a meta remark that breaks the fourth wall, IMO. She’s technically looking at Bond but she may as well be staring down the camera lens since the message is, “We’ve heard the criticisms and we’re moving Bond into a new age,” but of course we know – and are proven right – that what it really means is “Yes, we know how the Bond films are regarded by some wet blankets. Now having acknowledged that, buckle up for more of the same!”

It’s GE’s version of NSNAs Algernon saying, “Now that you’re on the job, I hope we’re going to get some gratuitous sex and violence.” And it makes just as much sense “in universe,” which is to say none at all. These are supposed to be people who work with Bond, not people who watch his movies: the scenes where he interacts with women on an assignment are not visible to them, so how do they know how “misogynist” he is and why should it matter so long as he gets the job done? And guess what? Everyone in the department is a “relic of the Cold War” unless Bond has more seniority than they do, in which case it’s not his fault if you’re a new hire.

The “Cold War” part is particularly rubbish since the Soviets barely factor into most of the earlier films as a threat and are more often fellow victims with the West. This remark isn’t a criticism of Bond’s anti-Soviet mindset – which we never see on screen – but rather an acknowledgment that some critics think the novels and films belong in the 50s and 60s and can’t be made to work in the 90s. Which would be a stupid opinion for Dench’s M to have as GE Brosnan is obviously not 70ish years old and wasn’t around for the 60s missions. Unless, again, she knows what she knows about Bond from watching old movies and not from reading his dossier.

This one I’m rating “Truth.” Jim is correct that it’s the series itself that’s sexist, and the Brosnan era does little to change that. Characters like Mary Goodnight and Stacy Sutton are written and played as idiots whose only job is to look good, and if anything Bond is amazingly patient with them. GE will “fix” that by giving us a competent computer expert who, like all Hollywood “nerd girls” dresses frumpily but only has to pull her hair back to look like a movie star (they forgot the glasses, though). TB gave us a bullying letch Bond who forces Pat Fearing into sex to save her job, but GE gives us a reformed Bond who…um…seduces his evaluator so she’ll write a favorable report. But not to fear, soon enough we’ll get a brilliant female nuclear expert. In hot pants and tight tank top with a bare midriff. Progress!

Also, if M really has a problem with crass innuendo and suggestiveness in the workplace, she needs to call Samantha’s Moneypenny on the carpet as well, as her double-entendres are often so juvenile and distasteful that they make Bond seem the master of subtlety.

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It’s also a remark that kind of portends the rest of the film as well. It’s about how the franchise has started to become irrelevant, something the post-1989 films were obsessed with asking each and every time out (except for maybe TND), and Bond’s mission is to take out a former colleague, a former Double-oh agent. In a way, it’s about taking out the old and ushering in the new, going back and eliminating one of the Double-oh Section’s own, taking out someone who is part of the “relic of the Cold War”, someone who in many respects is a mirror image of Bond himself.

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Eon kept asking “has Bond become irrelevant” for the same reason the TOS Trek movies scripts kept asking, in their way, “is the original cast too old?” It was a rhetorical game of “call and response” because they knew the audience would yell back “No!” and it always made them feel good to hear it.

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Is it Truth? Sure
Is it Fiction? Sure
I mean, whatever you want.

I have no answer, only that from my very own perspective, it’s an entirely overwrought, over-analysed, overly self-aware, kind of irrelevant line, that only got the attention it did becasue the series had been away for six years.

In fact all really it does is have Dench’s interpretation of M (almost Edward Fox-ian) set off in one direction, which is then rapidly binned during the “As Time Goes By” reunion and every bit of “Fnnarr” (copyright the esteemed Jim) dialogue that follows in that next installment.

Was Bond many things prior to '95? Yes. Is it pretty much the same thing after '95? Yes.

A line that gets far too much attention considering how completely irrelevant and meaningless it is other than to give Dench a chance to spread her acting chops.

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Here’s the actual exchange:

M: You don’t like me, Bond. You think I’m an accountant, a bean counter more interested in my numbers than your instincts.
BOND: The thought had occurred to me.
M: Good, because I think you’re a sexist, misogynist dinosaur. A relic of the Cold War, whose boyish charms, though wasted on me, obviously appealed to that young woman I sent out to evaluate you.

Let’s dissect that, pretending for a moment that this dialog is not in the script as a broad, clumsy nod to the audience but treating it as an in-universe exchange between the two characters. Bond has expressed a concern about M’s fitness for the job based on what he perceives as her lack of experience in the field (or, one gathers, military service like her predecessor) and her background as a paper-pushing cog in the bureaucratic machine. This criticism (and it’s not even HIM that’s saying it, mind you) is based on Bond’s views as a professional and are 100% relevant to work.

Her response, in contrast, is a personal attack on Bond’s character that has zero to do with his effectiveness, his value to the department or government, or his impact on other team members who rely on him. Now, if she’d said, “You’re a danger to this department, a ticking time bomb of reckless impulsiveness whose reliance on personal instincts over hard intelligence and callous disregard for regulations makes you a potential threat to every agent and ally who enters your orbit, and to the government’s continued willingness to even keep the double-0 section intact,” then that would have been a legitimate concern, and work-related. Instead she critiques his views on women and politics, which excuse me, who gives a damn?

This is the same as if we had a meeting of generals where one said, “Your overly strict focus on minor details of protocol is demoralizing the troops. What the men need is more action and less boot-polishing,” and the other responded, “Yeah, well your model-building hobby is childish and your accent sounds dumb.”

M just comes off as petty and, yes, unfit for the job. If she was determined to get a black mark added to Bond’s file, why did she send a woman (and a young one) to review him? If it came back negative, she’d say “I knew it” but since it comes back positive she decides, “He must have seduced her.” Once her preconceived notions are set in stone, to hell with conflicting data. This is a poor quality in an intelligence chief, to say the least.

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Not sure how much the novelisation lecture helps in shedding light on this - Gardner tried to connect this with his own continuations I believe - but I seem to recall an exchange, or exposition to the effect, that DenchM was a political appointee to the position (as in fact most Intelligence chiefs in democracies would seem to be).

So this version of M wasn’t a member of the secret brotherhood* (sic!) and meant to be exactly what intelligencers around the world have to cope with since the invention of the world’s second oldest profession.

This has been nagging me even when I saw the film for the first time. It’s meant to introduce us to a new female M - but all her subordinates (with the exception of Tanner) seem to already be familiar with her (and largely on her side). Whereas Brosnan is supposedly the best horse in the SIS-00 stable, and has been for many years. Yet he doesn’t seem to be at home in his own HQ.

The new SIS set making use of the real-life Lego monstrosity by the Thames doesn’t help the production at this point. With the exception of Llewelyn they all are new in their roles and it feels strange to address this with one minor character. Here too I would prefer a minimalist approach, no comment - or at most a line that doesn’t make us wonder who’s on whose side in this. Bond isn’t Harry Palmer.

*As opposed to Craig-verse’s version where Dench had been a career intelligencer herself and possibly instrumental in recruiting with an eye on psychological vulnerabilities and carefully cultivated loyalties.

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This dialogue obviously has one job only: be part of a trailer telegraphing „we know, see?“

It did work. But as you all pointed out it does not make any sense.

Bond could have responded: „Do you need a choir boy or someone who gets the job done?“

But that would have diminished M‘s authority, and the goal was to show Dame Judi Dench deliciously challenging Bond and winning the female audience over.

Again, interesting to see the next male or female M deal with Bond.

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Here’s the thing, though: I think the whole idea of an adversarial relationship between Bond and M is tiresome and wrong. It works nicely in OHMSS because Bond’s at the end of his tether with “Operation Bedlam” and later because he’s ready to chuck the career to save Tracy. There’s also some fun tension in the wake of Jill’s death in GF. But naked defiance and insubordination should not be Bond’s default posture, and M shouldn’t have to spend half his/her time trying to keep him in line. Like the “this time it’s personal” stuff, the more often you do it, the less it succeeds.

Craig-Bond in particular is a loose canon who needs constant supervision, which together with being advised/directed/programmed by the voices in his ear creates the impression of a 007 who is not disciplined enough, focused enough or maybe competent enough to stand on his own. He truly is a “blunt instrument,” but one that has to be tracked by homing devices, smart blood, etc because he can’t be trusted not to make things worse instead of better.

I know, it’s all part of the “Dirty Harry” routine: street wise maverick cop versus officious stuffed shirt, but it doesn’t work for Bond because (1) unlike Harry, Bond doesn’t have to clock in at the office every morning and (2) unlike Harry’s bosses, M is on the right side of the argument as often as or more often than Bond. Harry comes off as “our only hope when the law’s hands are tied” while Bond is a rampaging bull in a china shop, getting the job done but with ten times the collateral damage of any other operative and defeating the whole purpose of a “secret” service.

I’m really hoping next time, we’re back to M giving a briefing and a good luck, and Bond heading out on his own, with the (deserved) trust of a boss who knows he’ll get the job done right.

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To which she could have responded: “No, I need someone who is half monk, half hitman”

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The dialogue just happened because they decided to cast a name actress as M. You don’t hire her to do the usual friendly chit-chat, with one or the other insubordination being tolerated as long as it all ends well. She wouldn’t have signed for playing good old M with the bees under his (her) bonnet.
Casting her was crucial to the series development, as it indicated the way it was to go. Away from that “family and friends” relation, a relic concept from the 60s which by then had outlived itself, towards more professional, down to business and sometimes strained relationships. LTK had been a first attempt at a slow transition towards this way, but with the long hiatus and a new Bond, they were able to make a full cut.
M is not his paternal superior any more, but a woman who doesn’t like him and his methods – and outright says so. Moneypenny is snappish and talks back, and even Q is more on the giving than on the taking side when it comes to the usual banters.
He’s not the king of the hill any longer, he’s Her Majesty’s blunt instrument who is questioned by others and himself much more often. 1990s cinema wanted it that way.
And now that I write it down, it dawns on me that it was nothing else but another way of “going back to Flemmming”, because in the books, Bond is exactly that. Well, it all culminated in Die Another Day, so be careful what you wish for :winking_face_with_tongue:

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September 22.

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that the Bond whose character changes most over his tenure, is Roger Moore.

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  • Fiction
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Which gives the lie to the impression of his lack of range as an actor (an impression often self-generated in that lovely self-deprecating way of his). He is by far the most adaptable, and always engaging as Bond, whatever the approach. The others are considerably more one-note. They might be stronger in their given style, Mr Craig is stronger at brooding for example, and The Actor Pierce Brosnan doubtless outstrips Sir Roger in proclaiming each line as if he only learned English last Thursday, but MooreBond scores strongly at everything.

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Sir Roger sure is one of the most underrated (Bond) actors because he a) was not the first one, b) was not known for weighty ACTORLY films and shows, c) got into the first “is this still relevant”-phase, then had two major “who cares about relevance, it’s just a ton of fun”-hits, following the “he’s fun but isn’t he getting a bit old”-phase, polishing that criticism with one last “he is so old (and at that time ageism was still considered as fun as any other discrimination)”-film. Followed by “now finally we get a real ACTOR”, followed by “oh, man, that ACTOR is not as fun as Moore”, succeeded by “he’s like Connermoore!”, and capped off by “finally a real ACTOR who also radiates disgust and seriousness and we’re post 9/11 brooding anyway and every bit of light fun as in those horrible Moore years is beneath us… until we’re desperately yearning for it”.

It’s funny (it’s not) but people (and critics, who might also be people) so often are misjudging (unable to judge) what acting is all about. They adore the attention seeking thespian (or politician) and ridicule those who act so well that you don’t notice it. In the last days one of those truly magnificent actors who mastered the underplaying left this world. I hope he is now sharing a laugh with Roger and Sean.

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Great words and a great observation, my friend! :+1:

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I’m going with…FICTION. Do the films change the most during Sir Rog’s tenure - I’d argue yes (though I’d also offer that cinema changed the most during that period also), but I don’t think the character/his portrayal changed more than any other actors.’

Does every actor work out the kinks? Yes, the SC of GF is more ‘polished’ than his DN - I’ve said many times that Brozza’s TWINE is more fleshed out than GE, but I don’t really think anyone really changed. DC’s Bond maybe, but even he starts with CR written with the character’s arc in mind. But I don’t think that interpretation is radically different by the end (well, other than dead).

FICTION

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On the other hand we get with Moore:

  • tricking a young girl (we avoid the term ‘virgin’) into sex, having sex with another girl he suspects to work for the enemy and subsequently threatens to kill unless she talks

  • twisting a woman’s arm to make her ‘talk’, later having sex with her while he keeps another hidden in his closet (whom he just moments before used as a decoy in his bed should somebody shoot at him)

  • admitting to his temporary partner from a rival service that he killed her lover (while he could have lied about it - should have if he’s a pro)

  • visiting a 12 year old grave of a woman he knew for - at most - a couple of weeks (though admittedly he was married to her for a couple of hours)

  • keeping watch over a sleeping beauty from an armchair

These are just a few of the waypoints Moore’s Bond passes over the course of his career. For me it’s not easy seeing AVTAK’s gentleman Bond as the same ruthless cad of LALD/TMWTGG (though the smarmy softpørn ending of the pts would fit right into that guy’s repertoire). The remarkable achievement isn’t so much that they put the Moore model of Bond through these iterations - he was bound to over seven films - but that Moore delivered every facet of this broad spectrum with unfailing professionalism as if it had always been his approach to Bond*.

*And in a different market environment we might well have seen an even colder, more ruthless killer Bond from him as in his THE WILD GEESE mercenary persona. That just didn’t klick with the market environment at the time, just as the cranky anti-Bond Ffolkes didn’t. But if it had…

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Oh, yes, Ffolkes - what a great performance. And the scene in THE WILD GEESE in which he makes the dealer eat the drugs…

Could Moore have been a more Craig like Bond than Craig if the timing had been right?

And thinking about Benoit Blanc - could Craig have been a MooreBond, too?

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I think he could have. I’ve said it before, but I would have loved to have seen what Moore could have done with Licence to Kill. Dalton crushed it and it’s my favorite Bond movie, but there’s a part of me that’s curious what that would have looked like with Moore, albeit a younger Moore than he was in 1989.

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Let’s face it, as an actor Roger definitely had a “lane.” If he strayed from it, things could get iffy, but while he was in it, he was the master. Fortunately for him, he landed at least two roles ideal to his strengths; Simon Templar and James Bond. Or maybe more accurately, two roles that were thinly defined enough and malleable enough to be shaped into his image with great success. Superficially, they appear very similar (because, as Roger said, “I do tend to look like me”) but if you spend any time with them, there are many things he does to distinguish them. Not broad or ostentatious things, because that’s not his style, but little things.

While he was Bond, the character evolved from a ruthless, fairly mean-spirited cad into more of a Galahad type. When we first meet him, he’s conning Solitaire out of her virginity, but by FYEO he’s telling Bibi to put her clothes on to get an ice cream (if Solitaire is any older than Bibi, it can’t be by much, and she’s twice as naive). TMWTGG’s Bond slaps around Andrea just to show he can, but AVTAK Bond risks his life to save a hopeless case like Stacey by dangling below an airship. Would late-model Bond have cheated by kicking Tula in the face? Maybe, but it’s harder to picture. Would LALD Bond have taken Melina under his wing like a kind uncle, helped her fulfill her quest and postponed seduction until the end of the mission? Highly doubtful.

Yes, I know it’s not like Roger’s performance changes all that much, at least on the surface; he’s always suave, witty, polished, etc. But over time he gives us glimpses of the man behind the facade: sensitive to mentions of Tracy, honest with Anya when – as Dustin points out – he doesn’t have to be, and maybe shouldn’t be, grimly resolute as opposed to flippant when he tells Melina “We’re not dead yet,” genuinely remorseful at the fates of Lisl, Ferrara or Vijay. We come to know him through these little moments in ways more effective than if we’d seen him break down in tears or drone on repeatedly about what a hard life he has, or how many loves and allies he’s lost. You know; the Oscar bait stuff so dear to “real” actors. Roger does mo(o)re with less, which is why he excels in these “hero” roles that are so thinly written that any morsel – and anything the actor adds – is “fleshing out,” as opposed to scripts that are written with tons of opportunities for broad, emotional histrionics, which are frankly Roger’s kryptonite. His “emoting” is like his movement: more is less. Ask him to walk and you’ll say “There goes the coolest guy in town.” Ask him to run and you’ll see all the grace of a flustered emu.

My point being, I guess, that while Moore’s Bond does change a lot, it’s not so much a case of Thespian Roger driving his directors to “push the boundaries” and “take the character in new directions,” as it is a case of the films gradually honing in on Roger’s strengths and retooling the character to fit them.

And I don’t just mean the humor. Consider: the “Roger Moore” type is that of the classical hero; stalwart, courageous, honorable and with a palpable disdain for evil and a desire to balance the scales to good. This was what worked for him as The Saint, and it’s what he brings it to Bond. Which is to say, and let me be clear, it was not there before in movie Bond. Connery’s Bond was never a do-gooder at heart nor a knight errant. He was not motivated by a desire to expunge evil. He did what he was assigned and he did it with extreme prejudice and unparalleled skill, but if he had a personal motivation at all beyond patriotism, it was the alpha male’s desire to out-think, out-maneuver, out-fight and out-seduce every other man in the room. To climb up and face the King of the Mountain and toss that loser back down to the bottom of the heap. To win. Watch him in his scenes with the big bads and it’s always about out-macho’ing them, belittling their supposed genius, scoffing at their schemes and threats. With Roger, you got the feeling he was genuinely repulsed in the presence of evil and viewed the villains like human cockroaches in need of being stamped on. Roger said he liked to imagine they had body odor so he’d convey a sense of distaste and revulsion.

In its way this is consistent with Fleming’s Bond, who found his job as an assassin easier if he could latch on to some morally repugnant personal trait in his targets, nevermind how many good reasons were listed in their dossiers to do them in. But of course in other ways, turning Bond into a “good guy” in the Galahad/Templar sense obviously turned the movie 007 on his head and made him into something one could justifiably say he was never meant to be, or at least that the audience didn’t seem to have been clamoring for. My point, I guess, is that it only happened because Roger was in the role, and so we’re left with a tenure that starts with him as a caddish bounder and ends with him a straight up “good guy.” LALD Bond is largely Connery in Roger’s skin (now with hair!) but by 1985 movie Bond has been fully transformed into something else entirely. And thanks in part to being the oldest Bond, it’s a 007 who sometimes conveys a sense of world-weariness, a degree of disillusionment and maybe a desire to save others from going down the path he chose, almost none of which really comes up again after he leaves the scene.

Connery Bond remains the same throughout, if a little more relaxed and goofy in DAF as you might well expect from a guy who’s come to recognize his own invincibility. Dalton starts mad and just gets madder. Brosnan, IMO, never really does come into focus. Craig remains the “hard luck” Bond throughout, though there is that dramatic 11th-hour shift to “devoted family man” in NTTD. But even then, little Matilde would’ve gotten a better breakfast if Roger had been there to whip up a quiche.

Sorry for the length of this. I just realized I could have just pointed out that we started Moore’s era with “Well, I wouldn’t have killed you before” and ended with “Good morning, I made you a quiche” and just left it at that.

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September 23

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that it is better to go “Back to Goldfinger/Thunderball” than “Back to Fleming”

  • Truth
  • Fiction
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