Deathmatch 2025 - Sideswipes

Good question. Star Wars is 50+ years old but continues to bring in new fans (even if only to quickly join in the chorus of endless complaints). Star Trek also seems to keep finding younger fans (albeit I suspect in nowhere near the numbers Star Wars does). Marvel movies are based on characters created 50-60 years in the past but younger fans are very much into them.

One thing all those films have in common is that they’re untethered to any familiar time or place; they exist in their own reality independent of the fashions or technology of the day. Star Wars may be half a century old, but aside from some iffy haircuts it never looked like the 70s, and whatever Earth the Marvel characters live on is always a day to a few years in the future compared to ours. Similarly this may have helped the Bonds over the years; staying a step or two ahead of real life with the gadgets. On the other hand, the fashions, vehicles, hairdos etc in Bond are very much of their time, which older fans either excuse or joke away but it’s quite possible they’re very off-putting to younger viewers. But the point is, in the long haul everything that ties a Bond to a moment in time is more weakness than strength. It helps that while the Bonds are generally in tune with public tastes, they are not overly concerned real-world politics or current events. Making SPECTRE the enemy instead of any Communist nation state was an extremely canny move over the long haul, for instance, while “no brainer” cash-ins of Blaxploitation or Kung-Fu films just earn a sheepish shrug or eye roll in retrospect.

Another thing the above franchises have in common is that they all operate within complex, well-developed mythos that encourage engagement and immersion in their depth and breadth. I spent countless hours learning the ins and outs of Starfleet uniforms, warp speed technology and the layout of a starship. Other kids knew the names of every alien in a Star Wars crowd scene and bought action figures of characters I don’t remember even spotting in a film. Marvel continuity is so dense by now that you need a reference guide to understand anything. Create a nuanced and fully developed fictional world and you make it much more tempting and rewarding for fans to place themselves in it. And if there’s one thing we all need at this point, young or old, it’s a place to escape to.

So I say: go big on the spectacle and sense of adventure, don’t be shy about tossing in technology that doesn’t – or can’t – exist, establish a coherent continuity in terms of who is who and what is what, and just generally present us with a world we’d like to be in. Stories about loss and pain and loneliness and misery are great if you’re chasing awards, but there’s nothing in it to pull in the next generation of fans. At this point I mostly hang around the Bond franchise out of gratitude for the wonderful escapes it provided when I was a kid, lo those many decades ago, and maybe the hope that I can recapture a tiny bit of that again, some day. Win over a young viewer that fully and you’re in business. And yes, bringing them in when they’re young is the only way to do it. The older you are, the less likely you are to be a loyal, devoted fan of anything, IMO.

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How will young people define “escape” in 2028? Will it be a concept they engage with?

Instead of escape, will they look for representation and affirmation in the films they go to theaters to see?

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Maybe both are not exclusive? When I pay a call to the bookshop these days I notice two particular sections which either weren’t there before or grew from niche offerings to centre stage, demanding presence and prominent displays in the very heart of the shop floor:

  1. Young Adult Fantasy

  2. Manga

Both of these share a serial narrative (sometimes spanning decades and countless entries) with in the vast majority not reality-based fictional environment where protagonists face varying degrees of fantastical adventures. None of them are necessarily about ‘representation’ in the first place - but by escaping into these fictional worlds their readers identify with their protagonists and feel represented by them.

It’s not different from why kids used to identify with Peter Parker and later Harry Potter. The urge to find some alter-ego at the newsagents or the bookstore is still there and probably as pressing as it was 50 years ago.

This is not actually bad news for Bond. Nearly all his adventures have at least some fantastic element - and some of the best use fantasy and horror elements with virtuosity and gusto. It’s not a coincidence Charlie Higson and Anthony Horowitz both started their approach to Bond with adventure series for younger audiences.

I suppose recent entries in the series decided to define their escapism to a large degree as: outrageous luxury bling and oligarch resort locations. This is perhaps not all wrong but may fall a little short of No’s obstacle course against death or a periscope into the conference room of the Russian embassy complete with a mine to blow it all to hell in case of war (or if head of Station T meets with an untimely end). Mind you, the fantastical wasn’t entirely absent. But the cyber-eye in NTTD is a bit naff and the data kraken monstrosity Bloferhauser creates is just a different facet of reality. Neither is likely to make us want to escape into Bond’s world.

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September 25

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that each actor’s tenure, Lazenby excepted, could lose one film and be none the worse regarded; indeed, potentially improved.

  • Truth
  • Fiction
0 voters
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While my (embarassing) devotion to every Bond film has been documented (by myself with no regard for anyone‘s pleasure here), I have to choose Truth and put forth the following:

Connery: skip YOLT, and it would not only benefit his era but also make TSWLM even more original.

Moore: skip AVTAK, and people would not have complained about his age (well, not as much).

Dalton: LTK, of course, and he would have been even more liked than Lazenby (sorry, that sounded mean, I love Dalton)

Brosnan: skip TWINE, and despite the outrageousness of DAD the fun of TND would have felt as if it just exploded into that follow-up („gee, whiz, if they quadrupled on that, what would the next one have been? A Terry Gilliam Bond?“)

Craig: skip NTTD, and his Bond would have gotten a nice retirement.

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…alas, it was not immediately accepted, as the throes after Brosnan’s tenure and during Craig’s first attest to.

That said, I think the fanbase became a lot more relaxed by the time Craig left. Many wouldn’t have minded him not returning for NTTD (or didn’t expect him to, me included). For Craig it probably wouldn’t make a difference whether NTTD existed even though it was the better film than SPECTRE (which isn’t saying a lot).

A lot can be said against DAD, but these days I haven’t much love for TWINE either - and TWINE hasn’t any scene that’s as much fun as DAD’s excellent sword fight. Of the two TWINE could probably go without doing much harm to Brosnan’s legacy.

LTK would probably have better been left in the drawer for another time until the production could have done it with a proper budget. Chances are TLD might have been regarded as hidden gem by connoisseurs.

Moore, simply by having done the most (together with Connery) could also likely do without two films and still be a legend. Though he really depicts a range I’d say any two could be cut - as long as either TSWLM or MR remains.

The mess that is NSNA should not have seen the light of day. There could be a solid case if Connery hadn’t returned to the role his tenure would be regarded as even more of a legend, the ‘real’ James Bond. By going into direct comparison with his older successor Connery lost a little bit of his magic.

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Reluctantly I’d delete DAF and keep Connery in the 1960s with a clean, uninterrupted run. What Dustin says about Sean being more of a legend for not coming back has truth to it. However I am thankful we got to see those bonus appearances from him and equal Roger’s run.

I’m not the biggest FYEO fan but I’d keep it and remove AVTAK, just for the fact OP would have been the better thematic conclusion for Roger. Going off into the sunset with an age appropriate woman without the issue of ‘one too many’ age wise.

In terms of perception LTK and DAD would go. I like LTK but also think it’s a missed opportunity, especially when the poster says James Bond is “out on his own”. Well, not really. Q comes along with one of his biggest ever roles and supplies numerous gadgets. A truly isolated Bond would have been good to see. TLD is the more beloved film and it’s the one I’d keep in terms of reputantional legacy.

I say DAD is better than TWINE but it’s hard to deny Brosnan’s Bond reputation took a hit for years afterwards, and the franchise in general with the more open embrace of CGI. Leaving him after the killing of Elektra would have been a powerful final note.

Likewise I’m a pretty big NTTD fan but the missile strike didn’t just impact Craig but a lot of fans. They could have had him driving away in the DB5 with Madeleine and people would’ve been okay with that. I wanted Craig back but it’s also a good thing to leave people wanting more. There’s no doubt NTTD made people view his incarnation and the series differently.

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It’s TRUTH but I would offer that most of our - and the general public’s - opinions are baked in after the first. For example if you were CraigNOTBond, then your opinion probably wasn’t changed after the “where’s the gunbarrel gone?” shock has worn off.

The financial numbers show that TD only lost support, and if Brozza wasn’t your cup of tea, then I highly doubt the LSD-would-help double-bill of TWINE and DAD were getting you onside.

Yes, losing a film with no ill effect is TRUTH, but for me, TRUTH of questionable value.

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Why did I see that coming? :rofl:

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Sorry, couldn’t resist! :ogre:

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This a tough one to answer, as we’re not so much sorting a basket of apples as tugging at a Jenga tower. You can’t just pull one piece out without the whole thing shifting and maybe collapsing.

Let’s say we jettison YOLT, and assume that means OHMSS will follow TB. Hooray, no more continuity issues when Blofeld doesn’t recognize Bond. But are we saying we want the world to have waited a full four years between films, at the height of Bondmania? Are we saying we want Connery to have starred in OHMSS '67? If so, what would that film have looked like and how could the rest of the series at all resemble what we know?

I’d lean towards axing TMWTGG, honestly; it was rushed out too soon and it showed. But if 1 year is too soon, surely 4 would have been too long. Would “Spy” have been what it was without the full-court press to resuscitate the franchise after “Gun” fumbled?

AVTAK is another tempting candidate if only, as noted upthread, OP is so much more satisfying a swan song for Roger. But surely there would have been another AVTAK, whether before or after TLD since they were the last two Fleming titles left to exploit. So are we saying '85 would have brought no Bond at all, a recast AVTAK or TLD in place of AVTAK?

My head hurts.

Would some of the actors have been better off without one – or maybe more – films on their resume? Quite possibly. Can we remove any of those films from existence without screwing up the whole shebang? I don’t think so. But if we’re looking at it as the former – that is, imagining a job interview where an ex-Bond decides to conveniently leave off a less impressive stint at a firm no sane person would admit to having joined, then yeah, my advice as their agent would be to say “leave that one off.” But honestly, I gather the real bragging rights are based on quantity, not quality. Saying, “star of 6 Bond films” sounds more impressive than “star of Goldfinger” to most audiences and industry types, and the only guys perceived as at all “failing” are the ones who can claim only 2, or 1.

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There’s of course never any certainty about such things but Charles Helfenstein’s The Making of OHMSS mentions various different script stages between June ‘64 and June ‘67 featuring a range of gadgets from down-to-earth heel knife to laser gun to boots with built-in skis and ski strap grenade, plus an amphibious Aston and assault gliders.

For a significant portion of that development Gerd Fröbe was to play Blofeld as half brother of Auric Goldfinger and tortures victims in a centrifuge. Bond befriends a chimp, drives a Ford GT and kills Blofeld and Bunt at the end with a statue (or a trunk).

Let’s just say chances are the hypothetical 1967 OHMSS would likely have turned out very differently…

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It’s not universally true because both Dalton films, as far as I’m concerned, are essential and among the very best the franchise has to offer.

If Dalton joins Lazenby on the exempt list, then it’s absolutely true. The previous era being the best example, as it would have been a much stronger era of Bond films had Skyfall been the finale rather than either of the two films that followed.

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September 26

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that after 25 films the iconography and continuity has worn completely thin and it would be preferable to restart with bare minimum associations to the “old” ways. The Bond theme and the gunbarrel get through, just.

  • Truth
  • Fiction
0 voters
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If we absolutely had to cut films, then your suggestions sharpshooter make the most sense, though I am firmly on the keep them all side.

However, having said that, if we could get rid of just ONE film, then I would wholeheartedly go with No Time To Die.

I am one of those people. I thought Daniel Craig was a good James Bond and he was solidly in my #4 007 spot behind a tightly packed threesome of Pierce Brosnan, Roger Moore, and Sean Connery. But then he did NTTD and, combined with what information came out afterwards, my opinion of him and his tenure dropped.

I find NTTD the worst film in the series, and hearing that he only came back to kill off James Bond ruined Craig for me. I was willing to overlook the “slitting my wrists” comment as something said after a long and arduous shoot where he suffered an injury. But I can’t do that with his wanting to kill Bond off. Of course, the producers let him, so they also have some blame, but why should he want to do it anyway. He could just as easily have left the role and not come back like every other 007 except Sean Connery. I know that shouldn’t affect my feelings about his screen efforts, but I’m afraid I can’t help it.

While he played Bond well, his 007 rarely seemed to have any fun–certainly his films were lacking in it. As a result, before NTTD, his tenure was already bordering on being my least favorite. After NTTD, it is solidly at the bottom of Bond tenures, and his rebellious, brawling Bond is now also my least favorite 007. I went into NTTD hoping to like it and expecting to like it as I have every other Bond film. But it turned out to be very disheartening and infuriating. It was more of a poke in the eye than a celebration of a new Bond film, and, as a result, it is the only Bond film I don’t like.

So, in short, NTTD made me view Craig’s incarnation and his tenure differently all right. It severely hurt him AND his legacy both.

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Truth.

And leave off the gun barrel, too. It would suggest continuity when there is none.

The EON era is over. Distinguish yourself, Amazon, with a new idea. Don’t act as if this new era is a continuation, it won’t be. And while we‘re at it, compose a new theme for Bond as well. Reinvent or die.

While staying true to the character, of course (yes, I am a hypocrite). A gentleman spy. How would that be possible in today‘s dumb, brutal world?

Like an antidote.

That’s what we need right now.

The rest is garnish for nostalgia (aren‘t I courageous this morning? Our cat brought a mouse yesterday, so I have to get tougher, finally.)

Attention: This comment will self-destruct as soon as the new film will be to my liking.

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Ah yes, the cress of yesterday. Cressterday.

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It’s truth - but I’m afraid it’s far from being universally acknowledged. So I just can opine on this from my personal perspective. Take this chance - finally - to create something new. And if there isn’t a trace of the old ballast I will not miss it. Even the gunbarrel and theme. Build your Bond, start your own tradition(s). The millstone around the Craig era’s neck has been the constant ‘clever’ callbacks and ‘updated reinvention’ of Fleming characters and organisations. It would have been a lot better had neither happened.

The whole point of the buyout has been to gain creative control and cut out the Eon veto. By all means, if you pay billions to get that freedom - then use it.

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