Deathmatch 2025 - Sideswipes

Of course, Gilbert did do Shirley Valentine after Educating Rita, so he did prove he could do the same thing over and over in multiple franchises. A sort of Michael Bay before there was Michael Bay, if you will…

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You can tell from my moniker what I voted for :smirk:

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The “initiate conflict/blow the place up” schemes, while clearly a danger for the rest of us, always seem to have rather poorly thought-through consequences by the antagonists. I’d argue that up until Carver, who basically wanted “media rights” the massacre-the-population gang have had only sketchily-thought through motivations.

Drax I suppose had some sort of master plan. Orlov had internal political motivations, although even after multiple viewings over the years, I’ve never quite figured out as to what Kamal Khan gets out of it all. That’ll teach me to let my attention get diverted by Vijay’s local–waiter-rather-than-Wimbledon delivery, and a crocodile submarine.

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I think* the early films played with the allusion of Spectre (and Goldfinger) working on behalf of the PRC at least part of the time. While Dr No’s scheme certainly favoured Russian interests in the space race and ICBM technology, it’s not beyond Spectre to copy the Russian Lektor cypher machine and sell one to Beijing (as well as keeping a copy for its own uses to resell the product).

YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE’s scheme is situated in the Asian theatre, within reach of PRC’s resources and one might imagine Chinese strategists gambled on USA and Russian to annihilate each other in a nuclear exchange that doesn’t destroy the entire planet. It would be a big and reckless gamble but that’s actually the only way I can think of to explain why anybody would want to start WWIII - because they think they will survive it.

Stromberg’s scheme on the other hand seems to depend on humanity having no other choice but to live under the ocean. Meaning the entire surface would probably have to be unfit for human habitation. Although nothing really suggests Stromberg intends to share his Atlantis with anybody else but Anya and a platoon of his guards. Maybe Naomi was initially destined for the position of ‘companion’, but her loss didn’t inspire Stromberg to postpone the operation until the vacancy is filled.

It would seem Blofeld and his backers intended to still have something to come home to after their plan succeeds, while Stromberg appears to have been dandy with leaving radioactive lava and ashes above his ocean paradise. Therefore his would have been the worse outcome.

*There’s no hard evidence other than Goldfinger showing around a vaguely Chinese-looking gentleman (or was that two/a group? I forget) and dropping the phrase Operation Grand Slam, therefore ‘think’.

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Carver’s plot never made sense to me, either. If Britain and China go to war…what? No other news outlet is going to cover the story? Yes, he gets to run juicy headlines, but so does every other media organization. How can you arrange exclusive rights to coverage of a military conflict?

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It’s not HARD evidence, but James Bond tells Auric Goldfinger something along the lines of “Mr. Ling–the Chinese gentleman–is an expert on nuclear fission…Of course, his government’s given you a bomb.” To which Goldfinger says in self-satisfaction, “I prefer to call it an atomic device–small but particularly dirty.”

So Goldfinger all but definitively states that the Chinese are indeed helping him.

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June 8.

“But for Bond”

Which successful scheme does more damage?

  • Dr No - murdered British agents unavenged, weird island despot survives, US space programme collapses
  • Live and Let Die - murdered British agents unavenged, weird island despot survives, US society collapses
0 voters
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Even if we assume numerous secondary failures after No’s successful machinations - because the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo programs are dead there’s no ‘space race’ (Russia wouldn’t have to spend these enormous resources without a competitor and likely move a lot slower, maybe just enough to perfect unmanned ICBM warhead deployment), no moon landing and no push for consumer electronics/information technology and much less need for microchips all around - it’s still likely the arms race would have developed along the same lines. America would probably have pushed nuclear warhead deployment by means of hypersonic bombers and the outcome of the Cold War would have been the same regardless because that was an economic arms race Russia couldn’t win.

The damage to US image - when the moon and space are not a US frontier the allure of America may be quite diminished overall - is hard to guess. America’s charisma has been overwhelming ever since 1945, one huge success story all through the 50s and 60s. While US has been actually behind the Russian space program right until the moon landing 1969.

Maybe the effects would have been very minor, no Star Trek on the telly, Gunsmoke running until the 1990s and only replaced by a Flash Gordon/Bradbury version of ‘fantasy-sf’ then. No pocket calculators for school kids, Californian garage entrepreneurs sticking to skateboarding equipment but having to make do without teflon-coated waffle irons. There’d still be Vans and Chucks, superhero comics, rock and pop music in their different iterations. The world would look significantly different, but we’d still recognise it.

Whereas we currently see in real time what an opioid crisis and the collapse of a society mean. This is not the sole cause of events, not by a long margin. But Kananga might look at events of the last 15, 20 years and could be forgiven for thinking this was his work.

Kananga’s scheme by light years.

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While no Star Trek would have been desastrous (for me) the drug trade would have gotten more powerful earlier. Would that have meant an earlier LTK? Stromberg and Drax becoming more interested in selling drugs underwater/in outer space?

Maybe it all doesn’t really matter whether Bond is successful or not because it’s really the Blofelds of this world who never stop.

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I could be mistaken but for some reason I seem to remember a line in there about getting TV stations. Of course, like nearly other bit of exposition in TND, it was rapidly interrupted by machine gun fire/vehicles tearing around, so it might have just been my imagination.

TND plot experts out there (a truly committed subset of Bond fandom), please advise!!

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To paraphrase Alan Partridge, Dr No contest.

End of the space program - no man on the moon, no Houston we have a problem, no Bruce Willis in space.

LALD on the other hand, is a perfect example of a plotless film (do we really remember what Kananga is up to? He could’ve been a rogue dry cleaner for all we care), existing only as a perfect vehicle for its lead character.

Unlike some entries - here’s looking at you SP - where there seems to be too much plot and too many scenes where everything needs to be “explained” (and I still don’t quite know what’s going on but that’s a ‘me’ thing), the effortless simplicity and apparent lack of “stakes” in LALD work in its favour.

A brilliant poster (a personal fave along with YOLT), theme song, a new Bond, the Rolex, buses, boats, it’s all exciting and dangerous without the world needing to be saved. And while the likes of Tom Cruise feel the need to do ever more outlandish things to grab our attention while staving off the end of civilisation, one still can’t top the simplicity of a man hopping across crocodiles with their mouths open. A jaw-droppingly brilliant 2 seconds of celluloid more exciting than deep sea diving or clinging onto planes. For me, one of those moments that explain why we love this franchise the way we do and a reminder to filmmakers why you don’t need a green screen or ton of money to create an iconic moment.

DN the winner here, but honourable mention to the loser for having absolutely no reason to exist!

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I recall Carver had a deal for exclusive broadcasting rights in China once a peace was agreed.

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How would that even work in a country where the media is completely state-run?

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When you’re unscrupulous enough to start a war to arrange such a deal schmoozing up to a dictatorship isn’t all that big a hurdle anymore. Experience teaches media outlets aren’t too picky when it comes to facilitate questionable regimes and exclusivity would be a mighty tool to facilitate all kinds of prosperous deals. :man_shrugging:t3:

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From memory, isn’t the missile to be fired into a meeting of the Chinese high-ups, leaving only the elusive General Chang in charge, so I suppose that’s how Carver would achieve exclusivity as such. Regime change, with adverts for medicinal clogs and funeral plans.

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Chang?

Not by any chance related to Chaaargh?

This expanded universe thing WAS so EON.

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Right, how could I forget General Chang?

He was so bad-ass with that riveted-on eyepatch.

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June 9.

But for Bond…

Which threatened outcome is worse?

  • OHMSS - engineered mass extinction of life, from an Alp!
  • Moonraker - engineered mass extinction of life, from Space!
0 voters
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Drax. Because it would have been so fun to see him getting killed by his own followers after the supplies ran out and nobody knew how to build or grow anything (besides themselves), and also with him visibly not being up to his own standards they probably would not have even eaten him, just thrown him out of the space station quickly (so, like Bond).

Blofeld‘s OHMSS plan would have taken longer but could also have been fun to watch. First: a sexual revolution, then a revolution of sexually transmitted viruses, following a devil may care attitude from everyone, seeping directly into „Children of Men“.

But that might come anyway.

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On the surface they seem similar schemes. But Blofeld clearly calculated - rightfully - that his threat will cow the world into meeting his demands, providing him with endless cash and the fake title he’s already using, forcing all and sundry to grovel to him, suffer his bully nature and whatever else may come to his festering brain.

There’s only one place for such demands. Ever.

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Drax’ scheme is comparatively harmless since only his own creatures would have to stand that insufferable maniac. They deserve each other.

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