Debating TV shows

General
181

I watched the first two episodes and it’s quite close to the book. And downright marvellous in depicting the atmosphere. The fact is, that humour is a central element of this very decent thriller series. That does get a bit in the way down the line, also in the books, in spite of some shocking changes in personnel. Herron is really having fun writing these and there’s an awful lot more humour involved than there used to be in all of Len Deighton’s books together.

That said, it’s also tending to develop down a certain path one might consider ‘formulaic’ after a time*. Herron spends some effort on developing an entertaining spy vocabulary somewhere between le Carré (clear favourite), Fleming (Herron’s MI5 is located at Regent’s Park) and Deighton (atmosphere), Sandbaggers (atmosphere), Spooks (atmosphere), Queen&Country (atmosphere).

In other words, it’s a remix of the genre classics, though somewhat warped since Jackson Lamb, the central character (but not hero) of these books, was a Berlin legend - though it’s never explained what a Fiver would work in Berlin for and how apparently nothing between, say, 1990 and 2001 seems to have happened. And the years from 2001 to 2010 (when the series starts) seem to have taken place in a matter of weeks.

Anyway, this is lots of fun. I’m fairly confident this first season will be a success. Most probably the second one too. The third season ultimately will be the make or break of this, the point when the showrunners will have to decide how to create a payoff that can carry the characters over the reefs of that crucial year and into the future.

*And which series isn’t? It’s the whole point of reading a series to have familiar territory to walk your characters on.

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182

I loved the first two seasons of Westworld, and also the first season of Picard. That steady storytelling works for me (though, that second season of Westworld was anything but linear). I liked the third season of Westworld, but I felt that by reducing the number of episodes, HBO forced the writers to compact the story and push it along too quickly. As a result, I didn’t feel the same connection I felt to the first two seasons. Still, Season 3 of Westworld is better than 90 percent of what’s on these days, so … who am I to complain? And Season 4 is reportedly due out this summer.

I should point out that I measured Picard against the mixed success of Discovery. I liked the first season of Discovery, but then was put off by the Marvel Comics cloning combined with the “we must connect every last friggin’ dot to the original Star Trek series” approach in Season 2. That, along with the forced insistence on making the lead character more appealing by directly relating her to Spock, all felt very hyper-paced and derivative, while failing to bring many (any?) original ideas to the table.

Once they got themselves unchained from their current time stream in Season 3, that’s when I felt Discovery finally came into its own as a series, and I was happy to sit back and enjoy it. My verdict is still out on this season. It’s not coming together for me in the same way. But I’ll see it through to the end before making a final decision.

So you can understand why, in comparison, Picard felt like a breath of fresh air. I appreciated the slower pacing, and I thought it did a wonderful job of bringing new and familiar characters into the story without telling us to care about them, but showing us (through good writing and acting) why we should.

Having said that: Has anyone been watching Picard this season and finding it … well, a little off? It feels very different to me … and not in a good way. Season 2 is really lacking the serenity of Season 1, IMO. And what on earth did they do to the opening theme music?

Has anyone watched Gomorrah? We just watched the last episode … and I’m still processing it. One thing that struck me was the production values. I really haven’t felt that way about a TV series since Miami Vice. For better or worse (and Miami Vice was a very uneven ride, especially after the first season), it did change network television by filming each episode like a movie: Framing shots in artistic ways, creating beautiful interiors and utilizing exterior locations to their maximum effect, incorporating original and recorded music, etc. I found each episode of Gomorrah similarly riveting. The emotional intensity between the characters, combined with exquisite cinematography and set design, created an amazing television series that, unlike Miami Vice, actually got better as it went along.

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183

Been watching Amazon’s Reacher. I’m about halfway through the episodes and have thoroughly enjoyed it so far. It’s been a good while since I’ve read one of the Reacher novels, but I feel like Alan Ritchson does a pretty good job as the title character. He certainly fits the physical description of the character far better than Cruise did, that’s a given. I will say the standout has been Willa Fitzgerald as Roscoe, who even after reading several of the novels remains probably my favorite Reacher ally.

So far, it seems to be a pretty good adaptation of Killing Floor, based on what I remember of the book. Looking forward to finishing Season 1 and then seeing what they do with the next season.

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184

I am quite enjoying season 2 of Picard. It might not be quite as good as the first season but I do like it and I am a fan of Q, so I am happy to see he is back. There was one episode (can’t remember if it was Fly Me to the Moon or Two of One) that I found a little plodding.

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185

Finished Reacher. Loved it. Ritchson acquits himself well as the title character, giving him more of a physical presence than Cruise can, although I’m still one of the few, I guess, that will die on the hill that says that Cruise was great as Reacher. Absolutely loved Willa Fitzgerald as Roscoe, who is a character that I certainly wouldn’t mind getting a spinoff. Loved the character in the novel, easily the best Reacher sidekick, at least of the novels that I’ve read, and Fitzgerald does a great job bringing her to the screen. Never heard of her before this series, but now I definitely want to see her in more work moving forward.

The rest of the cast was good as well, a nice mix of familiar (Bruce McGill, Kristin Kreuk) and lesser known, at least to me (Malcolm Goodwin, who does a good job as Finley). If they can continue with solid adaptations of other Reacher novels, as this season was a terrific adaptation of Killing Floor, then Amazon is no doubt going to have a hit on their hands.

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186

Severance (apple tv)

I have started this and was immediately hooked. Two episodes in I must say this is right up my alley. Hopefully it stays that brilliant.

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188

You had me at Rian Johnson.

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189

Struggling through Picard S2 at the moment.

Now, I’ve been a huge Trek fan my whole life and was so excited when it was announced it was coming back to TV and I’ve really tried to be positive and give time with what they’ve been putting out.

I stopped watching Discovery halfway through season 4. Nothing dramatic about it, one week I just didnt feel like watching the latest episode and before I knew it the season was over and I had no motivation or desire to catch up. Maybe I’ll put it on in the background eventually, but i can barely remember the storyline and have no particular interest to see what happens. After 3.5 years the writers failed to make me care about the crew at all. I’d rather feel dislike or anything about the crew and show, but instead I just don’t care at all, the only Trek show I can say that about unfortunately. S1 was ok, I liked S2, nearly quit on S3 but stuck with it just because it was Trek and S4 has just lost me completely.

Picard S2 started so, so well but the last handful of episodes have become a struggle. I’m sticking with it due to nostalgia for the character and the great cast and characters, however the series is suffering from “streaming syndrome” - what should have been a 2 part, 1.5 hour story is being dragged out over 10 50-60 minute episodes.

I wish writers on the current Trek shows (and to be honest, most new streaming shows) would go back and look at how incredible the writing was on previous series, where writers could set up and tell an interesting, emotive story in 45 or 90 minutes. I know there were many dud episodes in previous Trek shows, but each season now is feeling like a 10 hour long dud episode - it’s exhausting!

Have to say, to balance out the above negativity, I suprised myself by absolutely loving Lover Decks!

I am extremely excited for Strange New Worlds (I did say that about Discovery and Picard, but not Lower Decks for what that’s worth) so am now pinning my live-action-Trek hopes on that.

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190

I hear you. I have not started P2 yet and will watch it mostly for my nostalgia for the main character. But even season 1 only got me interested when the original characters got involved.

As for Discovery 4: it is hit and miss, starting hectic yet boringly simple, getting better in the middle… and then having a stop-and-go until the end which wraps up everything much too cleanly, erasing the stakes and potential consequences.

But the worst offense is what you pointed out: they don‘t make me care for the crew. After a few episodes in season 4 my wife and I asked ourselves how we should characterize the crew members. We hardly knew those people. Instead the show wastes time and again on the same plot points which do not illuminate anything that was not already made clear before.

Also: Michael is such a superhero, always coming up with the solutions, withstanding every physical threat. And please, can she stop going to her default acting method of whispering, getting teary-eyed and smile through her „pain“?

The idea of starting this as a prequel, with a ship featuring such advanced technology that it immediately required a (bad) explanation for the continuity problem, was such a misfire that they had to send the ship into the future. Why not start there? Because they wanted to incorporate a young Spock and make him Michael‘s half-brother. Sounds familiar?

I hope SNW will be a better show. But the trailer makes me fear it will be a mix of D and P.

One more thing: D4 is always interesting and cuts right to the bone when David Cronenberg delivers his sardonic monologues. I would love to watch a whole show built around his character.

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191

Even back in the day there were complaints about how the two-hour Columbo episodes were padded (and they often were). A B-picture could only be X minutes long, and yet does anyone feel cheated by DETOUR’s 68 minutes?

My impression is that artists have not mastered the art of how to write/produce/direct long-form television. From my modest explorations of the form, I find that plots/characters are added rather than deepening/enriching the necessary narrative elements (my guess is that this practice might make for easier production all around). Hence, the impression of “thinness” and “paddedness” I get from shows.

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192

It depends on the story. There are examples of shows which don’t go on too long or seem filled with unnecessary subplots.

The streamers offer more wiggle room - episodes which can vary in length instead of having to slavishly follow a time format. But that opens up another problem: nobody will say „this story should be told with less minutes“. And actors will demand „my character needs more screen time“.

Ironically, network shows with built-in ad breaks often feel tighter and more focused. On the other hand they have to produce a fixed number of episodes, conceived under enormous pressure, so the filling with less interesting stories happens due to those factors.

However, the narrative in tv is always just the bait to hook the consumer into buying stuff. Let’s never forget that.

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193

I really should watch Breaking Bad before this comes out - I adore Johnson’s movies but I don’t know what he does with TV (I gather his episodes are particularly brilliant in what is generally a brilliant series)

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194

My wife and I are watching Picard Season 2, and we both have files on our computers called ‘Sh!t I stole from the Borg Queen.’ :rofl:

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195

Um… you have not seen BB?

And BCS either?

196

To my shame, I have not. It is an error I will fix!

Oddly I have seen Better Call Saul.

Breaking Bad is a gap I can’t explain.

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197

It will be the most unusual experience to start with the spin off (whose interestng angles and connections have more value if you know where this character is coming from) and then go to the original.

But you’re in for a real treat.

I hesitated to watch BB when it hit big and everybody said YOU MUST SEE THIS. I even watched the first episode and turned away since at that time I was not in a good state of mind and did not want to commit to a tv show about a dying man turning into a drug dealer.

A few years later I tried again and was surprised how different from my expectations the show actually was, how breathtakingly entertaining, daring and hugely funny.

One of the best shows ever? Definitely.

And Rian Johnson‘s episodes can be enjoyed best when you have seen the previous episodes, for two reasons:

  1. the first one does something narratively highly unusual, even for this absolutely fearless series

  2. tthe second one is a culmination of many developments within the whole story.

To just watch those episodes will hardly work.

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198

I hung with Season 4 of Discovery to the very end, and I’m glad I did. Because, like you, I was finding it a rough slog through the first half of the season. But then, for whatever reason, after the “farewell (sort of) Tilly” episode, it started coming together for me. Season 2 was actually, for me, a big turnoff. It was like they were trying so hard to make me care about the main character, by making her related to Spock, that it just overwhelmed everything else. I found it annoying. For me, Season 3 was a breath of fresh air because they were finally free of “we must connect every single ever-lovin’ dot” back to the original Star Trek series" heavy-handed plotting that dragged the second season down. The second half of Season 4 wasn’t amazing, but it focused on characters I had come to care about, and it resolved in a satisfying way.

Picard Season 1 was a delight for me, from start to finish. But Season 2 has been more of a slog. Again, it’s been much more heavy-handed with the plotting and character development. Did we really need Picard’s childhood story? I didn’t, and that’s a big part of what is dragging this season down. Scripts that feel like Psych 101 synopses are not good storytelling.

I don’t recall the “CBS Productions” title card at the beginning of either Picard or Discovery prior to their current seasons. I wonder if that’s part of it, a sort of “too many cooks in the kitchen” problem? And, while all Star Trek series have been message-oriented (and that includes the mothership all those decades ago), now it all just feels so … here’s that word again, heavy-handed. Like we’re being told, not shown, why we need to care about this.

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199

I’m with you on Cronenberg. I wish he were featured more often. I also agree with you on Michael … though I thought she became less superhero-y (hence, more interesting) last season. But that does still seem to be a fallback position for this series. Yes, I know that Kirk was usually the one to save the day. But I’d like to think script writing has evolved since then.

One of the problems for Discovery, I think, was the idea to tag-team Burnham with Georgiou right at the outset, as a sort of Marvel Comics superhero duo. It would have worked so well with Georgiou being the lead character (same roles, but with the focus on Georgiou). Michelle Yeoh can act circles around Sonequa Martin-Green; you made note of Martin-Green’s limitations. Yeoh would have been far more believable. But maybe her other commitments prevented her from playing the lead character … or maybe she just wasn’t interested.

Which reminds me: Wasn’t Michelle Yeoh set to star in a spinoff? I haven’t seen any signs of that becoming a reality.

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200

She was. A few days ago there was a rumour that would be turned into a movie.

I doubt it, however.

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