News on NO TIME TO DIE (no spoilers)

[MrKiddWint]

@secretagentfan

And as for the director: get people who want to do Bond films as well and who work within your system instead of those who try to change that system.

Which describes Guy Hamilton to perfection.

[MrKiddWint]

@dalton

At the end of the day, they need to get whatever issues have plagued the creative process of these films in the Craig era, especially those that have cropped up during Spectre and Bond 25 ,

If such issues produced a great film like SPECTRE, let them play on.

Also, if someone would not mind, could they let me know what were the shenanigans that happened with the production of SPECTRE with regard to its ending? I have only come to this community recently, so when I watched SPECTRE I knew nothing about any production problems (and does such ignorance possibly not prejudice against what is on the screen?).

[Dustin]

@MrKiddWint

Also, if someone would not mind, could they let me know what were the shenanigans that happened with the production of SPECTRE with regard to its ending? I have only come to this community recently, so when I watched SPECTRE I knew nothing about any production problems (and does such ignorance possibly not prejudice against what is on the screen?).

SPECTRE’s entire production was heavily influenced by the Sony leaks: drafts of the script popped up in the public sphere, together with to and fro squabbling mails by the studio execs and the production.

I never bothered with this so I don’t know any details, but a major point of concern was the motivation of characters and the last act that was perceived as needing work. From the finished film I’d still argue motivation is an issue and the last act doesn’t convince me either.

The torture sequence is a missed opportunity to show the villain actually being villainous, the escape is far too easy; the subplot with Moriarty lacks effort; Madeleine is an entirely out-of-the-blue character, suddenly loving Bond, then wanting to leave him, then turning up as damsel-in-distress again; Blofeld’s escape in turn is too easily spoiled, so on…

I would have preferred if Blofeld had been Silva’s lover and therefore out to get Bond, not the retro-fitted nonsense we’ve gotten. Overall, I felt SPECTRE is too long by at least half an hour and that last part, while showing a crossroads moment for Bond, feels too flat to me. We arrive at the end because the script tells us so, not because we understand the deeper significance of the moment - on purpose, because it was tailored to allow both readings of the final frames, the end of Bond’s (Craig’s) career or simply the end of SPECTRE.

But there must be a far more detailed thread on it somewhere in the old forums…

[secretagentfan]

I can add this about a previous draft:

• Q was captured in Austria (and did not get away that ridiculously easily) and held in Blofeld´s HQ
• Bond and Blofeld had a long conversation about their past during a card game in his HQ
• Bond and Q were held in a room which turned up the heat through the compounds solar power (the reason why the HQ was built in that place anyway) and about to be roasted, but Bond found a way for him and Q to escape and get Madeleine (a much better escape)
• Irma Bunt was at Blofeld´s side and tried to kill Bond and Madeleine in the abandoned Mi6 building during a massive rain storm
• that whole sequence was action packed and would have been much more visually arresting
• the last sentence in the script was Bond saying “We have all the time in the world” to Madeleine

Budget concerns led to that last sequence extreme overhaul, reducing it to the tv finale-quality.

And the card game was criticized for being too uninvolving. IMO that card game, with Bond and Blofeld exchanging a poignant dialogue, was much more to the point and involving than the torture without any consequence.

I wonder why they thought saving the money on the finale was a better idea than saving on, for example, the flat plain chase in Austria or the whole sequence with the hidden room (that information could have easily be given by Madeleine).

(Personally, I would have given Madeleine another motivation to accompany Bond anyway: Bond tells her that her father is dying and held by Blofeld. Bond wants to get her to tell him where her father was hiding. Madeleine refuses to tell him everything and decides to join him in finding her father. When they find Blofeld, he has already killed Mr. White. But he makes it look (through visual manipulation of the footage) that Bond has killed him.)

[MrKiddWint]

Thank you Dustin and SAF. Most appreciated.

After posting earlier, I thought some more about SPECTRE–and having just watched TMWTGG and thinking about it–I realized that for me, SPECTRE has the atmosphere of a Moore Bond. It is under-motivated, but coming after what I thought was the over-determined effort of SKYFALL, it struck a chord for me (Moore Bonds were my introduction to the series). Things happen in SPECTRE because they are the things that happen in a Bond movie with a slight nod to current events–Solex Agitator or Nine Eyes or whatever.

I understand better now what a disappointment SPECTRE was for some people after the increasingly psychological Craig Bonds. Again, thanks all for your help.

And I am going to ask one more thing, since I am clearly in the right place: does anyone know when Oswald Morris took over for Ted Moore on TMWTGG.

[theSpectre]

For a much better Spectre, just watch Mission Impossible Rogue Nation and pretend that Ethan Hunt is Bond and the villain is Blofeld.

[Pierceuhhh]

@MrKiddWint

And I am going to ask one more thing, since I am clearly in the right place: does anyone know when Oswald Morris took over for Ted Moore on TMWTGG.

I read somewhere that Moore did the location work, then fell ill and was replaced by Morris for the Pinewood stuff. I think the interiors look better than they did in LALD and Diamonds.

Re: Boyle’s incarceration idea. If it was a bleak “prison” drama, thatwould suck, but what if was something like Bond and other agents in a Great Escape style adventure? In some luxurious mink-lined prison like in DN, or Sanchez’s house? Or like The Prisoner TV show? Will be fun to find out one day.

Could’ve also been fun for Broccoli and Wilson to ask Boyle what his idea was before signing him up for 6 months and wasting some of the few precious days we all have left on this dying husk of a planet, but I’m not a bigtime Hollywood producer so what do I know?

[Vanya]

@Dustin

I never bothered with this so I don’t know any details, but a major point of concern was the motivation of characters and the last act that was perceived as needing work. From the finished film I’d still argue motivation is an issue and the last act doesn’t convince me either.

Motivation should have been the easiest thing in the world for SPECTRE. Bond has spent the last few years killing Blofeld’s operatives, from Greene to Scario, and foiling his plans. Isn’t that motivation enough to want him dead?

SPECTRE: This time, it’s professional.

[Orion]

We are talking the studio who made 5 spider-man movies.

But that’s not relevant to Bond now.

Now it’s studio execs who made 5 Bourne films and 8 (so far) Fast and Furious movies.

[sharpshooter]

@secretagentfan

Bond and Blofeld had a long conversation about their past during a card game in his HQ

I’m hoping for another card game sequence. We’re due one. Perhaps this idea can still be used provided Waltz returns.

[odd_jobbies]

@Orion

And the last time was just very cold water

SPs final act in London was ‘berg big enough for Brossa to paraglide down.

[Orion]

I think an ice cube at worst, but that’s subjective.

Spectre is seemingly the definition of divisive on the this forum.

[odd_jobbies]

@secretagentfan

• Q was captured in Austria (and did not get away that ridiculously easily) and held in Blofeld´s HQ
• Bond and Blofeld had a long conversation about their past during a card game in his HQ
• Bond and Q were held in a room which turned up the heat through the compounds solar power (the reason why the HQ was built in that place anyway) and about to be roasted, but Bond found a way for him and Q to escape and get Madeleine (a much better escape)
• Irma Bunt was at Blofeld´s side and tried to kill Bond and Madeleine in the abandoned Mi6 building during a massive rain storm
• that whole sequence was action packed and would have been much more visually arresting
• the last sentence in the script was Bond saying “We have all the time in the world” to Madeleine

I’ve never had the opportunity to read any previous drafts of SP, but now I really want to. That sounds great - miles better that the tosh we got.

Makes sense that ultimately the studio concerns would be money rather than quality. Damn those short sighted, greedy suits.

I’ve always claimed to be a big fan of SP right up to the London showdown, though I agree the escape from Blofeld’s lair is far too easy. From there on its virtually unwatchable.

Anyone have any suggestions as to where a fan might read this original draft?

[Pierceuhhh]

Too often, they forget that part of Bond’s world is gambling and sports. It’s a major element in almost every Fleming novel, but has been lost in the shuffle as the movies became action movies rather than daydream fantasies. Martin Campbell’s the only one to give us any substantial cards scenes in 30 years.

[Orion]

TWINE (Bond and Electra go Skiing) and DAD (Bond and Graves betting over fencing) do as well. It’s only really the Craig era that let it drop, even that seems like other factors just took priority behind the scenes post CR. Hopefully B25 restores it.

[secretagentfan]

@odd_jobbies

Anyone have any suggestions as to where a fan might read this original draft?

Let’s not get into that. I know this has been a mean tease. But copyrighted material is neither offered here nor is any search for that endorsed, obviously, for legal reasons.

[odd_jobbies]

@secretagentfan

I can add this about a previous draft

Is this the Logan draft which had Blofeld as an African warlord turning up in the last third? Just glanced through a reddit thread on it and by thier accounts it’s sounds pretty awful.

[Orion]

@secretagentfan raises a good point - this is copyrighted material, illegally obtained, we’re talking about so you should be cautious in regards to it…

[odd_jobbies]

@secretagentfan

copyrighted material is neither offered here nor is any search for that endorsed, obviously, for legal reasons.

Fair enough.

I didn’t pursue it at the time as I wanted to avoid potential spoilers. But now of course it’s very appealing. Could one at least say whether there’s just the one prev draft? If not is the one you’re speaking of the ‘warlord draft’?

Obviously I’ll steer clear of the draft itself, but I’d like to know if I’m reading feedback threads on the draft you spoke of, which sounded very good indeed. Or is it the one with the warlord, which sounds awful?

[sharpshooter]

@Pierceuhhh

Too often, they forget that part of Bond’s world is gambling and sports. It’s a major element in almost every Fleming novel, but has been lost in the shuffle as the movies became action movies rather than daydream fantasies. Martin Campbell’s the only one to give us any substantial cards scenes in 30 years.

Spot on. The casino is Bond’s arena. It’s where we first meet him in his 1953 debut. It’s why the tuxedo is his trademark outfit. The casino represents his entire life and profession. Winning against high odds with equal parts skill and good luck. Bond’s world is a specific lifestyle. Good clothes, food, drink, women and as said, the thrill of the casino. Bond is much more than a run and gun mass murderer. Yes, he does have inner trauma, but a lot of his routine is about enjoying life. It’s this cocktail that makes Bond. He isn’t Ethan Hunt or Jason Bourne. He doesn’t need to compete with them.