Debating TV shows

It’s less the plot details that we found predictable than the dramatic rhythm with which they were delivered. The three big plot twists were what we saw coming well in advance:

Summary
  • Crusher’s son would end up being Picard’s, as well, necessitating a dramatic confrontation between Crusher and Picard.
  • Crusher’s son would end up being nearly fatally injured, but survive, thus ensuring more drama among the trio.
  • Picard’s recklessness would rear its ugly head rather predictably, thus pitting Riker against Picard in their necessary character conflict.

We knew the captain would be waylaid in some form or fashion. The only question was, how?

And, why was Seven of Nine not thrown into the brig for her insubordination? It was awfully convenient that she was only confined to her quarters. Which, we knew she would eventually escape. Otherwise, how can the other necessary plot points advance? For us, it all felt a little too by-the-numbers.

This dramatic predictability is much the same reason I grew tired of Discovery … though I thought the third season redeemed itself. I stopped there and haven’t watched it since. I did just read that Discovery is cancelled after Season 5.

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Summary

She took an admiral’s orders over the captain’s. It’s going to rub her immediate boss the wrong way…but she was technically right to do what the ranking officer wants…

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OK, fair enough. It still struck us as one of many telegraphed plot points done more for the sake of plot-driven character conflict than something arising out of well-written character development.

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Not trying to nitpick here but… can one call that a “telegraphed plot point”? Isn’t it more something that we want since

Summary

Seven should not and obviously will not spend the rest of the series in her quarters?

It would be the same with any story: when an important character is sidelined, this must only be temporary. If Bond is captured, we also know he will soon rejoin the action. Anything else would be unsatisfactory.

A telegraphed plot point surely is Picard being the father of Crusher’s son.

Then again, it is not treated as if it is a huge surprise for us, rather something Picard does not want to see at first (even Riker says: Isn’t it obvious to you?).

In any event, this series was conceived with the question: how did these characters change in the past years, and if some developments might not be too surprising, this does resemble life, doesn’t it? One can expect people who were romantically involved to have kids, one can suspect that the death of a child will wreak havoc on Troy´s and Riker´s marriage, and so on. These plot points must be used further on, even if they are not breathtaking twists but exactly because they aren’t that. This is, what I think, a naturally and logically progressing narrative. And I applaud this season to not stuff in outrageous twists (so far), something which plagued the first two seasons which tried to change things up just for the sake of it, just to state: hey, this is not like TNG, folks!

Which is something that always irks me with the return of established shows or film series, by the way.

Why change things up completely when a return of a narrative after many years should rather bring back what worked and was beloved before? I always wanted to see Picard come back, but together with his former crew. Definitely acknowledging that times have changed for these characters, absolutely. But not dropping the others. After all, TNG was about a crew, not just about the captain.

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But isn’t that what the series is doing? Pointing out that they work better as a team, the three together are in their worst habits rather than working as a team, Worf is yet to join the other three and is on a lone wolf trek*

we haven’t met the rest outside of a cameo, so I don’t think this all going badly whilst they aren’t together is accidental.

*Joke slightly intentional

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In my opinion, yes, because it’s in service to what we could see coming. You might argue that that’s what shows like this are all about. I guess what I’m saying is that I like shows that don’t cater quite so much to those audience expectations, but rather surprise us with unconventional approaches to human behavior. That’s where the surprise lies. And we all have different levels of tolerance for where that line is. Sadly, I crossed mine with this season of Picard.

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Season 3 does, the two previous ones tried to leave the TNG crew out (except for one episode in season 1).

The Gilded Age

I liked „Downton Abbey“ in its first season - before it became a shameless soap opera, only busy to marry off characters and pretend that the ruling class there was incredibly nice to its servants.

I do enjoy, however, this first season of „The Gilded Age“, with its New York setting and the so much more complex motivations so much more. Fellowes uses a huge canvas of characters and, so far, gives all of them a special shade of good and evil, resulting in a compelling narrative which could avoid all the mistakes of the window dressing „Downton“.

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This looks good.

I have a very extreme reaction to it.

After THE GRAY MAN, seeing this, I think the Russo Brothers are Michael Bay 2.0, with a hopelessly overcranked visual style which lacks any elegance, the equivalent of having someone screaming at you while telling the thinnest wisp of a story which was told a million times before.

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Perfectly stated

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I posted similar complaints about Picard on a Doctor Who forum, where another poster agreed with my overall assessment on up through the third episode of this season. However, a few days ago he posted that after watching the fourth episode, his opinion has changed. In his words, “… it was really very good indeed. The show has redeemed itself! I strongly suggest you give it a go.” So I will.

Funnily enough, I thought the fourth episode, while still pretty good, was weaker than episode 3, so…

Well, it´s all subjective anyway :wink:

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Well, I watched it. I agree with the Doctor Who poster who said that it was better, but I can’t say that I was as taken with it as he was.

I think my problem is that I never followed the original Next Generation series with any regularity. I tuned in now and again, when nothing else that interested me was on, and never made any commitment to it. (The only Star Trek series I watched from beginning to end was the mother ship that aired when I was a kid.) When Picard's first season aired, I knew enough about the character to be intrigued, but was happy that it wasn’t imperative to know the entire backstory in order to understand what was happening.

This season has changed all of that. I’m sure that it’s very satisfying for people who followed the original series, but it leaves me trying to fill in gaps that I don’t really want to fill.

My husband followed Next Generation and the various spinoff series far more closely than I ever did, but I think he was happy to be freed of all that history in the first season, and has felt a bit dismayed to see it take center stage this season. So I think we are not really Picard's target audience.

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That’s fair. I’m on the other side of the coin; I was intrigued by the first few episodes of S1 and S2 but became less engaged (pardon the pun) as the seasons went on. However I am loving S3 so far.
I love TNG, so for me seeing the characters again (not just Picard), finding out what’s happened to them since Nemesis and seeing them together again is such a big draw. Unfortunately for S1 and S2, the goodwill I’ve built up over the decades for those characters will always make me more invested in them than characters like Jurati, Rafi and Elnor.
The show runners are in a bit of a tricky spot - who is the target audience? Those who didnt want the links to TNG to restrict it, or those who did want it to link to TNG? It seems they tried both approaches and the audience reaction really depends on how much they want to see TNG characters and links. Guess it’s for the best, S1 and S2 tried the fresh approach and now S3 is unashamedly a series for TNG fans - there’s something for all groups.

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It will be interesting to see how Season 3 fares in the ratings. If it surpasses the previous two in viewership, then it will have succeeded in terms of network expectations.

On the other hand, as you point out, viewer expectations are based on what we know of Next Generation and how much we care about what happens to those characters, not just Picard. The more closely tied a viewer is to that, the more likely that Season 3 will be the most satisfying.

I found season 1 flipped between really tied into TNG with really specific call backs then would do it’s own thing with only Patrick Stewart being left. Season 2 was almost all ignoring what came before now season 3 is all really tied in. I’d agree which goes better really depends on your relationship to TNG.

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And that’s what I meant before: why resurrect a franchise, especially one known for its popularity for its team, and then spend two seasons only rarely using that team and surrounding the main character with new ones which are not even connected to the old ones?

Season 3 at least acknowledges time moving forward by employing LaForge´s daughter. If “Picard” was originally planned not to bring in the TNG crew I would have preferred to have Picard encounter a real next generation of his previous crew members. The new characters in season 1 and 2 did nothing for me and are also a weak link in season 3 (aside from that new captain who starts as an a-hole and redeemed itself so far). To bring in Seven in the previous seasons was also kinda weird and incongruent, and while I liked the return of Q in season 2 it was definitely a missed opportunity not to have the rest of TNG interact with him.

Ah, well. So far, I love season 3 (even the weird, well, always weird overacting of Amanda Plummer). I hope it sticks its landing and won’t pull a NTTD ending for Picard.

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Her father was definitely a better Star Trek villain.

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