I guessed the scene was from the book and possibly even toned down. But it’s flanagans choice to use it. I won’t condone such a scene being fleshed out on the page, however the visceral nature of film arguably places even more responsibility on filmmakers than authors.
I didn’t read the scene as telling us that the knot will stop at nothing. That suggests this was an extraordinary situation for them - that they went that much further in this case to get what they wanted. I read the scene as intended to illustrate just how nasty these critters are on a regular basis. Using prolonged torture to get their fix of fear is a normal day in the office for them.
It was undoubtably effective, making them a fearsome repulsive bunch. It’s easily achieved if the filmmaker’s equally nasty in his pursuit of the fear he wants to illicit in his audience. Flanagan’s obviously ready and willing to take such direct, lazy routes.
It’s quite different to Nicholson chasing danny with an axe. That’s the threat of violence, whereas this is the violence itself, carried out at length to a bound up boy.
A similar movie is Katherine Bigelow’s cowboy-noir vampire flick Near Dark. Ultimately I’m exactly as repulsed by the vamps and fearful for their prey as she needs me to be, but she achieves it without resorting to gratuitous torture of kids.
But that’s my opinion and of course I respect yours.
I respect yours as well. And I am aware that scenes like this with kids are considered bad taste since a few years ago.
I don’t like to see them, I don‘t want them if the intent could be conveyed differently.
In this particular narrative I think that scene is essential and handled as it should be.
By the way, the torture of children reappears throughout King‘s work, recently in his new novel The Institute. And again, it is treated very well because it means something there, it is not gratuitous and could not be substituted.
Just to add: The cut i watched was 3 hours, so i guess that was the director’s. I’ve Googled around and it seems it was the director’s cut. I found this:
Elsewhere, there are a few more shots of the Baseball Boy being tortured to death, placing us more fully into an intensely upsetting scene, but the facts of the scene do not change. Squeamish viewers may turn away without fear of missing anything important. (My husband certainly did.)
So what i saw was more gratuitous. Though possibly even theatrical may have been over the line for me - who knows! But when it comes to kids, implying violence for the sake of story and actually showing it are two very different things.
IT… I made it about 5 minutes in and turned off. I know… how predictable
I love Horror, but it’s the ideas of Carpenter, Cronenberg and Lovecraft, the suspense of Silence of the Lambs and The Haunting (haven’t seen the remake), or the gothic headiness of Dracula and Frankenstein (Shelley’s book is an all time favourite of mine).
The sadism that’s become the norm with the likes of Saw - totureporn - really doesn’t do it for me. And i recall from past chats that you’re no fan of it either. So i completely get that you’re not saying the DS scene works because you like watching it, but because it’s essential for the story. I just think at the end of the day it is only just a story, so is it really worth putting such stuff - which only exacerbates societies disturbing, growing fascination with torture - up on the big screen? Personally i’d think, hey, we’ll make these critters scary with good old fashioned mood, acting and the suggestion of what we’re not showing you.
So, yeah, i passed on IT. Would rather watch The Good, The Bad and The Ugly yet again than see kids get hurt. Again, that’s not to suggest any folk who watched it did so in order to see kids get hurt, but that’s what they’re seeing.
To play devil‘s advocate: isn‘t The Silence of the lambs torture porn, too? For me it is, but I see the narrative value of having the female victim shown there, too.
In other words: I feel horrified watching the torture of children, women and men in equal measure. I prefer horror films without any such scenes, just as I feel disgusted by gore.
However, I am aware that sometimes the use of both can be justified if it is not there to cater to the lowest urges of some despicable viewers.
I agree with all of that. I guess what defines torture porn is a grey area. For me, when it’s a concise scene that exists to make it clear how scary the killer/horror is, it may not be pleasant, but that’s the point.
But these things very quickly jump the shark if protracted, or repeated after it’s clear what’s at stake. I don’t think Silence of the Lambs does this, likewise Michael Mann’s Manhunter. However, if think Hannibal does relish somewhat in the torture and gore. I guess that’s partly because the first two are from the protagonists POV, whereas Hannibal is from the killer’s POV. Hannibal is indulgent and gratuitous and for me that diminishes the drama.
The DS scene (in the director’s cut) is prolonged, but it’s not repeated, so I’d put it closer to the silence of the lambs/Manhunter variety, rather than Hannibal, if not for the fact that it’s a kid. For me that’s too tasteless to be justified, but that’s just me.
But anyhow, I think we both agree that Flanagan’s a gifted filmmaker.
Finished my MCU marathon last night with Spiderman: Far From Home. I really enjoyed phase 3, though this one felt more like a slog to get through than the previous phases. The movies are longer and by the time you reach Infinity War, these superhero romps start to get stale. However, phase 3 is, IMO, the strongest of the 3 phases, with the MCU finally figuring out how to make excellent villains (Zemo, Ego, Vulture, Hela, Grandmaster, Killmonger, Thanos, Mysterio).
Phase 3 ranking:
Thor: Ragnarok - My favorite MCU film. The film is hilarious with great performances by everyone. The story is tight and fixes all of the problems with past Thor films. Cate Blanchett is excellent and hams it up to 11 as Hela and she’s all the better for it.
Avengers: Endgame - Endgame perfectly wraps up the Infinity Saga with excellent callbacks and a (mostly tight) story. It’s use of callbacks are great and really reward the die-hard MCU fans, unlike some other films that engage in shameless and bad fan service (I’m look at you Rise of Skywalker).
Avengers: Infinity War - Tells a better story than Endgame, but doesn’t have the emotional payoffs of Endgame, though it does have a more devastating ending than even Empire Strikes Back.
Black Panther - This film does a great job tackling social issues with actual gravitas, even if it loses steam during the MCU-mandated third act melee. Killmonger is arguably the MCU’s greatest villain and one who actually wins the moral argument and does manage to change Wakanda.
Captain America: Civil War - This film is basically an Avengers movie and won that does a great job in showing the tragic fall of the Avengers. The airport scene is one of the best fight scenes in any superhero film and the final battle between Cap and Iron Man is a gut punch.
Spiderman: Far From Home - An excellent coda to the Infinity Saga showing how people are coping with the after effects of the war against Thanos. It’s a fun, teen road trip movie interspersed with Peter battling his emotions to find a way to set his own mark and move on from Tony’s death.
Spiderman: Homecoming - Spidey’s first solo adventure that is another fun, teen adventure movie with of the MCU’s scariest villains. Michael Keaton is genuinely frightening as Vulture and is the rare villain that actually has morals as he refuses to reveal Spiderman’s identity in exchange for Spidey saving his daughter’s life.
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 - Guardians 2 is another excellent cosmic MCU adventure with Kurt Russell playing one helluva a villain (the MCU really hit its stride with the villains in phase 3). If this movie has any glaring flaws, it’s that it relies too heavily on comedy. The movie never lets any of the emotional beats sink in as its quickly replaced by a joke.
Captain Marvel - Being this far down on this list is not a criticism of Captain Marvel, but rather just demonstrates the quality of the MCU especially in phase 3. CM is a fun and easy movie to watch and Brie Larson is excellent as Carol Danvers. This film is ultimately brought down a peg by being just another origin story. It’s a phase 1 movie transported to phase 3. That said, it’s the second best female led superhero film behind Wonder Woman. The movie was also teased to answer some questions between Infinity War and Endgame, that it really didn’t end up doing.
Ant-Man and the Wasp - This movie is just pure fun, but definitely a movie that feels out of place post-Infinity War. It has no true supervillain as while Ghost is the antagonist, she is definitely not a villain. She doesn’t do anything really bad and is just trying to cure her own pain. It’s nice to see Wasp getting main cred right next to Ant-Man as well.
Doctor Strange - In my opinion, the weakest phase 3 film, with phase 3’s worst villain Kaecillius (a complete waste of Mads Mikkelson). The film is an origin story and one that doesn’t handle all of its story beats with near as much nuance as Captain Marvel. It’s still a good movie, but for me, is the most forgettable of phase 3.
I’d agree. It oddly means that Spider-Man is the only one who is given good villains in all his appearances, with Zemo, Vulture, Thanos and Mysterio easily some of the best villains in the 22 films. Pure coincidence, but an odd one.
I didn’t even think of that, but I agree. Though, I think a specific difference has to be made between Infinity War Thanos and Endgame Thanos, as the latter (being younger and not experiencing the failures of the former) did not have the nuances of IW Thanos.
But it’s intentional, rather than poor writing. Brolin is given the chance to show a villain at different stages of his life, and Brolin makes the most of it, particularly in Infinity War, where he can demonstrate it in multiple points in his life. Endgame kinda shows 2 versions, the one who succeeded, and the one who, for the first time, has victory in his sights.
Oh yea, I totally understand that and Josh Brolin does a phenomenal job demonstrating those aspects. I just think the Thanos of Endgame is less compelling than the one from Infinity War.
One thought I had, and this is despite the great reception that Endgame has deservedly received. Should Endgame have been delayed a few years? That way we would’ve had a chance to see the world post-Infinity War and then it could make those emotional payoffs even greater.
Marvel did go out of their way to not demonstrate the 5 years. It would’ve been cool to see at least one film set in that world, but every MCU film, and tv series, were prequels. Endgame, it seems, is all we’ll see for now.
Ant-Man’s walk through San Francisco, then the fact Far From Home starts with Spider-man going to a charity event for victims of “the blip”, just raises more questions on how bad things got.
Edit: just liking all your comments for us having a conversation that was almost full nerd.
It’s a fun batch of movies, but numbering 11, it’s really two phases. The first half, from Civil War to Ragnarok, is basically one phase that deals with the pervasiveness of institutional lying. The Ancient One in Dr. Strange using magic from the dark forces, basically causing Mordo’s crisis of faith and turn to villainy. Ego lying to his son about his intentions and Star Lord’s mother. Peter’s lying to Tony about his use of the spiderman suit and basically causing the ferry boat near disaster. Odin’s lies to Thor and Loki about Hela and basically building Asgard’s entire empire on fictional falsehood. In a way, this mirrors societal revelations in 2014-2017, from Cosby to #Metoo to the 2016 election and the rise of hate (to the point where Agents of SHIELD had the line “It’s 2017. How are we still fighting Nazis?!”)
These themes are continued in Phase 3’s second half with Black Panther (T’chaka lying to T’Challa about his legacy and uncle) and Captain Marvel (Jude Law gaslighting Carol Danvers from her instance of amnesia), and of course epitomized by Thanos’ lies and manipulations of his daughters Nebula and Gamora. Pym’s and SHIELD’s mistrust of each other girds the Ant-Man films, and provides backstory to Endgame. In this second half, the consequences of said lies and divisions manifest. It’s these divisions that Thanos exploits enabling his initial victory. They sort of had to retcon the MCU with Captain Marvel as a prequel, the last hope as it were, and Ant-Man’s Quantum Dimension providing the means to the solution.
On the surface, there’s a lot of humor and action to Marvel, but it’s these subtexts that resonate and make Marvel movies have a lasting impression. With DC, they hammer you over the head with social commentary–successfully with Joker, problematically with BIrds of Prey, forgetting the fun in the process in both cases. Now that it’s done, the momentum has to start again from scratch for Phase 4.
